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"CalculatedRisk wrote on Mon, 8/16/2010 - 9:12 am "Just when analysts think it can't get worse ... it does. How unexpected (big smile) Listening to the builder conference calls, it sounds like a funeral. Best wishes."
Monday, August 16, 2010
Northern Virginia Bits Bucket 8/16/2010
Posted by Harriet at 6:00 AM
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73 comments:
pat-
You couldn't base assessments on listing prices, or everyone would list their house for $1 and just refuse to accept any of the offers. There is also no county that bases assessments on listing price, so it is a little unfair to think Arlington should be the only county to do this.
Blogger Ace said... If you don't like maple, don't put it in. If you want a cherry look, get cherry cabinets.
On page 6 of the flippers handbook, under "Rules" #2 clearly states:
2) When given a choice between quality and profit, choose profit. It is better to keep that money in your pocket than to give it to a seller who may not appreciate the fine details you've included in their new home.
As PT Barnum said, if you're patient, there will be another one along in a minute. It's just a matter of being patient.
;-)....
TN,
Am I crazy on the thinking cherry for cabinets, while more expensive, would also be foolishly inappropriate for cabinetry because it's too soft of a wood?
Cara,
I would think all the wear and tear on cabinets is on the internal shelves so it wouldn't really matter.
My $0.02
mytwocents,
You don't see beat up areas near the handles or corners if there are no handles? I have a cherry dining room table that dings if you look at it too hard, so I'm thinking even getting knocked by the broom handle when cleaing, or a frying pan edge as you're opening the door is going to wreak havoc in short order.
cara said...TN,Am I crazy on the thinking cherry for cabinets, while more expensive, would also be foolishly inappropriate for cabinetry because it's too soft of a wood?
No, you are not crazy. As mytwocents pointed out, it's the wear surface that matters most on cabinetry. Most of the "cherry" sold in the US is from South America or Asia, and not the traditional Cherry of yesteryear (old growth USA Cherry). But still, what matters most is wear surface. Were I to get cherry cabinets today I would probably be most interested in the hinges and how they handle the load. The Cherry used today does not bear loads well. Look at how complicated hinges have become on cabinets for example. The new styles besides offering modern conveniences such as hidden cams, spread the load over a much wider area because in general, the woods used are softer, and therefore, wear faster and bear less loads. I predicted in the early 90's that the arrival of renewable cabinetry (Plastic, PET or HDPE blends) was only a matter of time and that we would see them first at IKEA.
:)
Cara,
I also forgot to add that I realized you probably meant lower cabinetry, and yes, that would probably be a bad idea for someone who has kids. Soft woods + Kid Height = dents.
TN, Haha! I KNEW there was a manual!
What's strange is that prices of maple and cherry (of the same quality) are often quite similar.
I did go to an open house once where the guy was doing his own updating, and he was installing whatever he "got a deal" on. Although some of the materials were beautiful (he had marble tiles in the laundry room) the house was a mish mash of styles and colors, and he ended up selling well below his asking price.
Thanks TN,
Yeah, my table is from a particular tree behind the artist's home in Ohio... My mom's crazy like that and it was her table. (which we've now paired with sturdy chairs made in Malaysia....)
mytwocents,
The wear I usually see is not dents, but surface wear (finish worn off, etc) on cabinets located in high use areas such as under the sinks, silver drawers, etc.
I have had excellent results with refinishing and matching up those areas. The interior wear that I see is mainly due to wet dishes causing damage and/or oil or food stains. A simple fix (trick?) is to turn those shelves unside down for a new finish. It's almost impossible to see the underside of most shelving.
I hate oak and always have. Cherry is timeless as is white. I don't like white. I do like maple and had hickory, which I loved, in my last house.
I agree with the comment about 42", but if there is a soffet in place alot of work may be required to install them.
TN,
I won't argue the true "value" of flipper upgrades. The market will determine this in the end.
I am more perplexed that purchaser's, for the most part, will not buy a fixer-upper and reap those rewards themselves.
Cara, pls. see my reply and links in the prior thread. It is not too soft. It's a very popular cabinet and furniture choice. Both solid maple and solid cherry are relatively expensive. But a lot of furniture (and maybe cabinets--haven't shopped for them lately) sold today is cheaper and light colored wood or other material with all sorts of "finishes" on it. When the finish gets nicked or scratched, it is very difficult to touch it up, whereas solid wood with a natural finish is the same color underneath.
VA_investor, we have similar tastes in wood. (As I said before) I agree if there is ductwork, it may be silly and not cost-effective to move it just to get more storage space in the kitchen. But often these are fake "dropped ceilings" which are hollow and made to meet what was once a common smaller cabinet. A cheap kitchen do-over would leave those in place and replace (or reface) the existing cabinets with (cheaper) small ones. But with the small kitchens in Arl., it is much more functional to tear out the decorative soffits/dropped ceilings and put in the largest cabinets that you can (and that look goo).
good, that is.
Ace,
I don't find scratches and wear difficult to refinish and match. I wish I had some before and after pictures. You would be amazed. It takes the right skilled person, but I have found it an inexpensive and stunning fix.
TN, what you're describing is a universal problem with using low quality materials, regardless of the type of wood (oak, cherry, hickory, etc.), framing, hinges, etc. It is not an inherent problem with cherry.
Blogger Va_Investor said... I am more perplexed that purchaser's, for the most part, will not buy a fixer-upper and reap those rewards themselves.
Uhhh....We just saw the effects of that from 2002 thru 2008. It was called "The Home & Garden Channel".
Maybe you've seen it. As fascinating as a train wreck.
"The skill is in the holder of the tool not in the tool." That show among others was the best example of my Grandfather's sage advice.
;)
VA_investor, I am of the old school--buy quality and take good care of it.
TN, also, it requires the right (expensive in some cases) tools, and a good pro can do many tasks in 1/4 of the time that a DIYer (for the first time) can do them. It may be much more efficient for someone to buy a flipper house, esp. a well-done one, than to do it oneself.
I forget which economist wrote an article along the lines of "Why do I mow my own lawn, but would be offended if my neighbor offered me the same $20 I would pay someone else, if I would mow his?" This may be a bad analogy, since most of us can mow our (small) lawns and get more skillful each week.
Ace,
I do agree that having as close to a "natural" finish as possible is the most practical in whatever wood you chose.
However, we'll have to agree to disagree on whether cherry is a good choice for cabinets. The woods you choose for a formal dining room or formal living area are not the same woods I would chose for a kitchen. But I also soon will have at least one small child, and am living in an inherently kid-oriented neighborhood. So a different level of practicality makes sense even for a remodel/upgrade. Although I reserve the right to pick cherry if my kids are much older by the time we get around to remodeling (likely anyway). I just see a lot of young folk with small children picking these flips around me (probably because now is not a good time in their lives to devote energy or time to remodeling).
VA_Investor,
I agree.
I bought a fixer upper. I am happily updating everything. Got the floors refinished before moving in. There were horrible, what shall I call them, "pet stains" in the living room. The husband/wife team flooring people I hired were incredible. He cut away as small of a rectangle as he could in the living room to remove the damaged wood, put in a border element of brazilian cherry wood, then oak, then filled in the rest with plank width brazilian cherry wood. It looks great and intentional - rather than a fix. The rest of the house is the original refinished oak (I think it's oak) that was installed when the house was built in the 1940's. I also had the entire thing stripped of wall paper and repainted. Replaced an old fuse box with an upgraded circuit breaker panel, and had some plumbing issues fixed. (The water main in the basement actually came in, went to the ceiling, then routed directly over the electrical box.) Anyhow, all of that work was about $10k. Just that simple amount of work made a place that was sold "as is" look 100 times better. Plus, when I fix/upgrade things it's my choosing.
Next on the list is a new roof (I'm thinking landmark 30-yr shingles - it's a textured look not that flat rectangular shingling) and windows. Quote from a contractor I was referred to is under 10k for that (includes new gutters/downspouts/and trim). Then I have the main bath, the kitchen, and the basement to remodel.
The kitchen and basement I plan to do myself hiring out for the pieces I'm not comfortable with such as roughing in the plumbing or electrical. But I should be able to get most of the kitchen and basement done for the cost of materials.
Finally, I bought the house in Arlington for $26k under appraisal and $47k under tax assessment. Comps for fixed up houses around me are over $60k more.
At the rate I'm going I should have everything but the kitchen and basement finished within the first year I've lived there. I may also get to a new deck and fence within the first year. Hopefully in the second year I can get the kitchen and basement refinished. We shall see, either way, I'm enjoying the progress.
My $0.02
Ace,
I have to deal with alot of tenants and former owners that didn't get that lesson (or, more likely, don't care). My own property - well that's a different matter.
In my own homes, I've had the same paint and carpet for 10 yrs. My kitchen cabinets date to 1992 and are in excellent condition. You are probably like minded...others...
I just wanted to clarify my wood observation with the same one I use for fish in restaurants:
A name does not make it so. What we call Cherry (Prunus serotina and others) is not what you buy in a furniture store today. About the only commercially available old growth Cherry on the market in the USA is from reclaimed logs that were cut 100 or more years ago fished out of rivers and lakes.
The fish analogy is the same one that drives me nuts in restaurants:
"What's the fish of the day?"
"Alaskan Sea Bass"
"wow.....never heard of it"
And I always get a weird look when I say that. I would say its a safe bet that 75% of fish served in local restaurants is "Tilapia" (Oreochromis, Sarotherodon, et al) regardless of what the waiter or chef calls it.
Big money in renaming fish for profit. Wonder how that got started.
Almost makes you want to memorize things like: Sciaenops ocellatus (RedFish/Red Drum as in "Blackened Redfish)
FWIW.
Cara, it's always fine to agree to disagree, and certainly you should pick whatever you want in your own house.
I am just saying that I don't see any evidence presented (other than the quality issue, which is an issue with any material) that cherry is somehow "soft" or wears more poorly. If there were, you wouldn't see kitchen cab. manufacturers selling so many of them.
VA_investor, totally agree that you must make a distinction with rental property.
mytwocents, your flooring sounds beautiful and what you're doing to it sounds great. It's always nice to find such a deal and then transform it as you have the time/$ and using your own taste.
mytwocents,
Isn't it amazing how much refinished floors and new paint add to value. In my last house (blt in 1920) I did the same as you. Refinish floors and paint prior to move-in. Kitchen a yr or two later. Then roof and deck and some landscaping. Bathrooms had to wait a few years.
We did have to install central air at the time we moved-in.
Ace,
Not really trying to pick on you but just because something sells, doesn't mean there's a discerning clientele; with regard to your statement, "If there were, you wouldn't see kitchen cab. manufacturers selling so many of them."
Just say'n... :)
My $0.02
VA_I,
My kitchen is a horror story. I have an electric cook top with a pop up console with push buttons for the varying levels of heat on the burners - like an old school blender. My oldest Aunt on my father's side, 89-years-old, visited a few months ago and said *she* had never seen anything like it. Fortunately I can deal with this kitchen for the time being. I'm working top down - bathroom, kitchen, basement. That way if I need to rip anything up to gain access to the above room I'm doing it in a space that can be torn up with no worries.
The only reason I'm having someone come in to remodel the main bath for me is I'm currently only a 1.5 bathroom house. If I'm going to go without a shower I want it done quickly and by a professional. When I convert the .5 bath in the basement to a full bath, I can take my time and do it myself.
My $0.02
mytwocents,
My kitchen was a horror show as well. When you swept it, pieces of the original linoleum would break apart on be swept up.
There was the most basic of stoves. We put our old garage refigerator and countertop micro in the kitchen. My parents never commented, but my f-i-l sure did!
He just kept repeating "oh my God", "oh my God". LOL! He said that we needed to immediately switch out the push-button light switches (over my dead body!). He thought that I was completely "cracked" to leave our nice home for a wreck.
When he visited a few years later, all he had was praise for our gorgeous home!
btw - we had to replace all the pipes in the basement and run a new water main to the street. I have to admit that I missed my misgiuded joy of flushing the toilet while my husband took a shower. Yes, I am quite immature.
Didn't someone on here recently ask whether you needed a permit to cut down a tree? Was this in Arlington? I would like to cut down 2 over grown evergreens and plant a dogwood or something like that instead.
I've sent an inquiry to Arlington County but I'm curious if anyone has dealt with this before. I do not live in a homeowners association.
Thanks,
My $0.02
2cents,
no approval required as long as the tree is on your property and is not previously designated by you as a "heritage tree."
http://www.arlingtonva.us/Departments/ParksRecreation/scripts/parks/ParksRecreationScriptsParksTreesOrdinance.aspx
TN
dolphin tuna became mahimahi
ugli fruit became kiwi
http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2914/whats-better-farm-raised-salmon-or-wild
TN in the late 70s they figured out if yu just had theright name you could sell anything.
Vicious impoverishment of the poor?
just call it social conservatism
and free market capitalism.
"no approval required as long as the tree is on your property and is not previously designated by you as a "heritage tree"
Unless it's in a Chesapeake Bay Resource Protection Area:
"In order to maintain the functional value of the RPA buffer, existing trees and vegetation may be removed, only as permitted by the county manager, to provide for reasonable sight lines, access paths, general woodlot management, and best
management practices including those that prevent upland erosion and concentrated flows of stormwater."
Rules vary depending on the size of tree and reason for removing, but it's probably not worth researching unless you're in an RPA.
It was me who asked before about the trees, but I'm in Fairfax.
Ace,
did you see this one? Close Price: $1,055,000
10 Tax A: $781,600 with no visible upgrades from pictures.
MM,
Who puts their degree's on the wall of their HOME?
Va_Investor said...
I am more perplexed that purchaser's, for the most part, will not buy a fixer-upper and reap those rewards themselves.
I'm guessing most people don't have the cash on hand to do upgrades themselves, hence the premium for move in ready. It is easier to qualify to borrow more than it is for them to save up enough to go the fixer-upper route and do the upgrades themselves.
The Anonymous,
one more suicidal comp for you:
8/13/2010 Close Price: $965,000
5/12/2006 $980,000
oh, btw, The average rate for 30-year fixed-rate mortgages ticked upward to 6.62 percent from 6.60 percent for the week ended May 18 2006
MM-
I don't know what is so special about that house, but it has always gone for way more than tax assessment. In 2001 it sold for $635K and in 2003 it sold for $785K. Based on those prices alone I would have thought it would go for almost a million now.
Va_Investor said...
Who puts their degree's on the wall of their HOME?
That is funny. Mine is still in the cardboard tube that it was mailed in. I think I opened it once to make sure everything was spelled correctly and never looked at it again.
JF,
Thanks for the info. I only designate the tree an "eyesore" so I would guess I'm good to go!
Thanks,
My $0.02
For anyone that's interested, in Arlington if your home is within a Historical Preservation area or within 100 feet of a Resource Protection Area then you need to seek a permit. It seems in both cases it's a pretty easy rubber stamp if the tree is dead or dying as the rules are mostly concerned with preserving living growth.
The link JF provided got me to the right part of Arlington's website. (Thanks again JF!) They have a link to a contact for both cases so you can double check. I doubt my place is designated a Historical Area and I'm well over 100 ft away from Lubber Run which is the closest stream I know of to my place.
I am awaiting a response from both groups but I think I'm good to go.
My $0.02
MM,
RE: Ivanhoe house
Agreed - more buyers willing to overpay for a relatively unupdated $1M house.
Did anyone see this newly listed rip off on N 16th Rd? 2bdrm\1bath for $659k on a relatively small lot. Judging from the exterior, my guess is that it has not been updated. Fresh paint, though!
"MM said...
The Anonymous,
one more suicidal comp for you:
8/13/2010 Close Price: $965,000
5/12/2006 $980,000"
MM, I will concede, that is probably closer to what has happened to the typical SFH in that area over the past 4 years. So, yes, four years older and after dropping another 100K in rent, I got to see a 1.5% price reduction -- WOOHOO!!!
The irony is, if 4 years ago you had said that that home would sell in 2010 for 98.5% of its peak price, you would have been deemed delusional by some of the commenters on these boards. This scenario was the "soft landing" that we were told was not possible (instead it was something the "realtards" had conjured up to get to buy now).
Remember, the thinking at the time was DC as a whole was overpriced 30-40%. Further, (since no place is "different") if we simply waited long enough, steep drops would be seen everywhere, even for places like this one. In fact, it was one of our posters today who once said...
"Cracks in the Clarendon area's facade...
...Generally speaking, the houses for sale in Clarendon are significantly overpriced and have a long way to fall before reaching a bottom. The typical $800k house will sell for $500k by the time the dust settles.
4/24/08 11:43 AM"
Notice how it wasnt a fraud or some distressed REO -- the thinking was the "typical" SFH in clarendon would sell for 500K if we just waited long enough for "its moving in" to come true. All we had to do was sit back and wait, and soon enough all of us would have 500K SFH in Clarendon homes fall into our laps.
Its funny, based on Case Shiller, median prices, etc. prices for the "DC area" did drop 30-40%, just like the bubbleheads said. Thus, years from now, people will look at the price charts for "the DC area" and describe the bubble decade as a time "where prices rose to ridiculous heights, only to smash down on the rocks a few years later". By contrast, people living in places like this home you showed us will refer to the bubble decade as a time "where prices rose to ridiculous heights and stayed there -- pricing some people out forever".
So sorry I cant seem more enthused about a 1.5% price drop. Im sure some macroeconomists will look at the big Case Shiller drop and now say "mission accomplished". However, the fact of the matter is for most (not all but most) of us looking for big declines in SFH in places like Clarendon, the great big "bubble" was a joke.
Jewel,
That is a rip. And 1200 square feet seems awful generous from the looks of it. I have a 2 story brick colonial with 3 bedrooms and I don't think it's 1200 square feet of finished space.
My $0.02
PS - Am I the only one having a particularly unproductive day at the office?
mytwocents,
Good point on the sq footage. Also, the current owner bought the house for $28k in 1972. You would think that would leave for alot of room for profit, and no need to price the house sky-high!
Who knows, maybe he fell victim to using the house as an ATM.
Anon-
I agree 1.5% is not very exciting. Although on average I think that prices are down closer to 5% for houses that were not updated over this time. Also you comment that you have spent 100K on rent. Do you think you would have spent less than 100K on interest,repairs, insurance (and other lost costs) if you bought a place. You also probably would have refinanced 2 times (assuming you had equity) to get to today's interest rates costing you another ~10K.
While buying in 05-06 in Arlington would not be terrible financially you are better off having rented. Obviously there are benefits to ownership over renting, but if you are just looking financially it would have been better to have bought (anytime before 04) and rented instead of buying from 2005-now.
HB,
Anon is lamenting not buying in 2003. I was half ready to buy as early as 2001 myself but at the time had a sweet rental deal and a place all to myself when a roommate moved out. My friends all started pulling the trigger in 2002 and 2003 but I was starting to get skeptical by then. There was a lot of scoffing at my decision not to buy but things were ridiculous as early as 2004 from a buyer's perspective. Sure I think of the woulda, coulda, shouldas but for the most part, my decision worked out.
From a price perspective, I lost ground initially but made most of it back up when things got rational again 2007-2009. So I was able to sit things out for 5 years and save a substantial down payment, got rock bottom financing, and bought into a buyers market.
Would I have been better off buying 5 years earlier in 2004? Not substantially from a pricing perspective. I would have paid more in financing charges over that period, and wouldn't have had the financial flexibility I had. So, as much as Anon bemoans the fact, not pulling the trigger was the financially correct decision for me.
My $0.02
"Housebuyer said...
Also you comment that you have spent 100K on rent. Do you think you would have spent less than 100K on interest,repairs, insurance (and other lost costs) if you bought a place."
Maybe not, but once I buy I will still end up paying those lost costs regarless wont I?
Point taken on the refinances, but otherwise, the choices are I could have:
(a) bought 4 years ago and spent 100K on lost costs, or
(b) spent 100K on rent for 4 years, AND THEN bought spending another 100K on lost costs.
Presented this way, you can see why the 1.5% price drop is little condolance.
The Anonymous said...
"...for...us looking for big declines in SFH in places like Clarendon, the great big "bubble" was a joke..."
i was only addressing your '06 median buyer scenario; and as i said i can't stop those who've waited since '02/'03 from killing themselves.
this house sold on 5/11/2006 for $849,000, and before that on 12/12/2003 it sold for $549,900. so, waiting for $800K in '06 to sell for $500K is waiting for the '02 price to return, those i can't help.
but if one is not 'priced out' in '06 s/he is unlikely to be priced out right now. that's my point.
The Anonymous,
you forgot
(c) "...go ahead and kill himself now..."
:)
Anon-
No all of the costs I discussed (interest,repairs, insurance, refinancing) you would save entirely.
Interest: Your mortgage has interest and principal. Your rental likely costs less than the interest on the house you would have bought, so you should have been able to save the money that would have gone to principal. Assuming you saved this money and use it as a downpayment you will save all of the interest that you paid in the first 4 years.
Repairs: There are some amount of things that break. As a renter your landlord fixed them if you bought you would have to pay for them. So if you bought the same house now as then sure most things will be 4 years older, but I am sure that some things were also replaced saving you the cost of having to replace them.
Insurance: You pay this every year so clearly you save money if you buy the house later because you did not have to pay it for those years.
Refinancing: either you would still be paying 2006 interest 6.5% or you would have to refinance and pay the bank fees associated with it.
As mytwocents said that you were ready to buy in 03 and doing so would have been good because you would have had a ton of appreciation, but buying in 05-06 would have been a worse financial move.
MM-
The house you showed also fell from 850K in 2006 to 750K in 2009, which is a 12% drop
Va_Investor said...
Who puts their degree's on the wall of their HOME?
I do. What I wonder is who DOESN'T?
mytwocents,
I don't want to belabor the point re: the cabinets, but my point, once again, is that no one is presenting evidence of problems with cherry durability (that isn't low quality), which seems to be where the argument burden should be. I've presented evidence to the contrary--not SIMPLY that many of cherry cabinets are sold each year and have been for a long time (in a variety of qualities and price ranges)--but I am sure I don't need to walk you through Econ. 101 as to why that's meaningful even if that were the only evidence that existed.
If people want to present evidence to the contrary, great, I'll be happy to stand corrected if the data are convincing. But obviously people are going to believe whatever they want to. So, pick all you want--I'm completely unconvinced until you present it. But it's probably best to move on to more interesting topics.
Kevin,
I know people who put their degrees, awards, etc. on their office walls. Maybe you do too.
Housebuyer, I see where you are coming from, but isnt your argument roughly akin to renting forever? Your argument is it is good that I have not had to pay that stuff for the last 4 years. OK, but why 4? If 4 is good, why not do it for 10, or for 20? Better yet, why not rent for as long as it takes and then pay cash? Better yet, now that we know that "rental parity" is a joke in certain areas, why not rent forever, and save all that extra $$$ forever?
There is nothing wrong with that by the way. From a strict financial standpoint, that is probably the wisest thing to do. Also, if you are not financially ready in 2006 or whenever, its great to rent and save until you are in a good financial position to buy.
Still, the fact of the matter is, all of us, at one point or another, are going to break down and buy some place. We are going to decide to not save all that extra money per month and plow it into some sort of sunk costs like a mortgage. Thus, my position is the sooner I can start paying toward those sunk costs, the sooner I can be done with paying those costs.
If housing continued to go sideways for another 26 years, I can see someone on a housing blog pointing out that they have avoided 30 years of sunk costs by not buying. The counter argument of course is that had they just bought 30 years ago, they could have the house paid off by then.
Ace, I do as well. There's not enough room in my office for framed diplomas/degrees. Maybe a Dilbert cartoon and a 5x7 of the family, that's it.
Ace,
I'm confused Ace, you claim you love cherry wood, and yet you've NEVER personally noticed how soft it is?
All of my mother's and grandmother's cherry has this delicacy problem.
The only explanation that makes sense to me is that the new south american "cherry" somehow does have the right color, but doesn't suffer the soft wood problem. That's possible, such that buying so-called "cherry" cabinets might actually be totally fine.
Anon-
No I don't think my argument is akin to renting forever for three reasons.
First, I made sure to distinguish financial from non-financial aspects of ownership. AKA it may be financially a bad idea, but that is fine if you realize this and want the benefits of ownership.
Second, my argument would only work if house prices were flat to down. In the normal environment prices go up ~5%. So even if the renter is saving as quickly as the buyer is paying down their mortgage the renter can not buy the house with the larger down payment and have a similar sized mortgage to the buyer. The renters additional savings in fact would not even be able to make up for the increase in price.
Third, the buyers interest is only comparable to the renter rent at the start of a mortgage. When you buy your house ~80% of your payment goes to interest so this amount is likely as large as rent. As you get further into your amortization schedule you pay less interest and the renter pays more rent (standard rental inflation). Once this happens the renter starts to waste more money than the homeowner.
So although usually it is better to be an owner than a renter in this short time period financially you would have been better off renting. Although this is just a financial example clearly there could be non-financial benefits of ownership that outweigh the costs. As long as housing doesn't fall dramatically it is not a big problem owning a house instead of renting.
As someone who just spent a small fortune on new cherry cabinets, I want to weigh in on yesterdays conversation and defend cherry cabinets a little bit.
First, as far as cabinets not being real cherry, according to the USDA Forest Service:
"Black cherry (Prunus serotina), the largest of the native cherries and the only one of commercial value, is found throughout the Eastern United States. It is also known as wild black cherry, rum cherry, and mountain black cherry. Large, high-quality trees suited for furniture wood or veneer are found in large numbers in a more restricted commercial range on the Allegheny Plateau of Pennsylvania, New York, and West Virginia."
Maybe they aren't old growth, but they are commercially viable and used for cabinets. (My cabinets are Pennsylvania cherry).
At least one of the cabinet makers, Homecrest, specifically calls out "Prunus serotina" as the wood species being used.
No one who's done even a little research is going to confuse cherry with the South American "Brazilian Cherry" (Jatoba). While you can get Brazilian Cherry cabinets, they are not very common versus maple or cherry, and you're going to pay a premium for them. You're also not going to get Brazilian Cherry thinking it's regular cherry. The look and color is too different to lead to that confusion. When I walk into a house with Brazilian Cherry floors, I recognize the distinct look of the wood in seconds. I don't know of any other South American "cherries" imported in significant quantity.
Cherry is one of the softer hardwoods, softer than oak or hard maple, but it is still a hard wood. It's not like getting cabinets made of soft pine. It's hard enough to be used in floors (but then again, so is some pine).
Cherry cabinets are very popular, even though they are often priced as an upgrade to maple. That doesn't mean they are better than maple, just there is less supply versus demand. The fact that they still sell for more means that there are enough people who like cherry enough to pay the premium. Of course, I have no way of knowing if these are "discerning buyers", or not.
I also like maple. I was open to both maple and cherry when I went looking, but liked this specific wood/finish better. If I was getting painted cabinets, though, I would have definitely gone with the maple.
Thanks Keith,
See now that's informed and helpful.
I wasn't trying to imply that cherry wasn't classified as a hard wood but looking back I guess it probably came across that way. So thanks for setting things straight in an orderly fashion.
KeithK,
LOL, I'm glad my "discerning buyer" comment got a shout out. Again, I wasn't picking on cherry or it's popularity, only that there's no logical basis for concluding that popularity implies durability. :)
My $0.02
Sorry about the multiple posts. Blogger kept telling me it was unable to publish because of size. I'll delete the extras.
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