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Saturday, February 27, 2010
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62 comments:
Didn't we just talk about this house http://franklymls.com/AR7180556 and say that it was way over priced? If so a 230K drop in price will probably make it a lot more reasonable. It may still be overpriced and it is still right next to 66, but the huge price reduction definitely helps
HB,
That is really funny. Guy bought it at 300k in 2002 and he wanted 830k in just 7 years - talk about nonsense we have been seeing across the board in NoVA.
Drop probably helps - still overpriced for my money!!
More of our money being thrown at this black-hole:
"Fannie Mae reported a net loss of $15.2 billion in the fourth quarter of 2009 ... For the full year of 2009, Fannie Mae reported a net loss of $72.0 billion...
The fourth-quarter loss resulted in a net worth deficit of $15.3 billion as of December 31, 2009, taking into account unrealized gains on available-for-sale securities during the fourth quarter. As a result, on February 25, 2010, the Acting Director of the Federal Housing Finance Agency submitted a request for $15.3 billion from Treasury on the company’s behalf. FHFA has requested that Treasury provide the funds on or prior to March 31, 2010.
...
Although there have been signs of stabilization in the housing market and economy, we expect that our credit-related expenses will remain high in the near term due in large part to the stress of high unemployment and underemployment on borrowers and the fact that many borrowers who owe more on their mortgagees than their houses are worth are defaulting.
...
We expect to have a net worth deficit in future periods, and therefore will be required to obtain additional funding from Treasury ."
housebuyer,
I just noticed this exact same house and was about to post it!
Maybe someone will overlook the 66 factor if they can get a 5 bdrm/4 bath house in N. Arlington for $600k?
And I hear Fannie & Freddie are wasting money - the Wall street style - I am aware of parties & celebrations in the workplace - which include alcohol & other form of entertainment.
These are highly corrupt organizations that I just can't believe my tax dollars are supporting. There needs to be outrage at this stupidity as much as other bail-outs. They have no motivation for risk-management given the blank check they have been given.
Spider,
I looked over at FNM - pathetic at .99 a share.
CR has the latest Freddie Mac delinquency hockey stick graph.
Housebuyer Did you notice that the house is now a short sale. Wonder how much seller owes if he originally thought he needed $830,000. He must have HELOCed it during the bubble.
Harriet,
Agreed..it is a major disaster in the making.
Washington will eventually realize that it is not worth bankrupting the whole country for this non-nonsensical institutions. FNM & FRE were one of the primary reasons we got into this mess in the first place.
spider said...
And I hear Fannie & Freddie are wasting money - the Wall street style - I am aware of parties & celebrations in the workplace - which include alcohol & other form of entertainment.
Don't know anything about today, but Fannie Mae was the client for the first project I worked on out of college from ~2002-2004. One entire floor of their Worldgate building (Herndon) was empty and used for catered parties with alcohol provided. Our project alone had one about once a month, all paid for by the Fannie Mae people. I won't even get into how much money their "software developers" made who could barely use Excel.
Jeremy -
It is still going on from insider sources-nothing has changed - it has gotten worse. And why would they change, when tax payers are subsidizing all of it....that's you, me & everyone else here.
Moral hazard is one of the most underestimated evil, if you ask me. The worse part is ignorant mass has subscribed to bail-outs as "only alternative" due to constant fear-mongering.
HB
Your argument isn't that Government fucks up occasionally, your argument is Government can do "Nothing".
I don't need you to point out some failed policy, I only need to point to one "Success" to show you are wrong.
That is when you start drinking the Right Wing Koolaid. GOvernment is very efficient at the provision of Public goods and non market goods.
spider,
As long as people think that bailouts are the way we're gonna be in a mess. As soon as people's eyes are open about the corruption going on at these places on our dime they might change, but I doubt it. Both R and D have advocated bailouts as the answer, there was no sane voice for anyone to listen to at the time, hopefully the sane voices are coming soon...
Pat-
I have never said the government does nothing right. Why do you keep trying to put words in my mouth. We just disagree on a lot of things about what is right vs. wrong. I regularly say that I think the government was correct in saving the financial system. I think that they do a good job of preventing/reducing terrorism (aka FBI/CIA are very good). I think they do a good job of creating incentives for people to work hard yet still caring for the poor and helpless pretty well. I think the police and court systems are good... I can keep on going, sure none of these things are perfect, but they are pretty good. So yes I agree I think they handle public good well. I just don't consider health care a public good and think they probably would not handle it well. I would rather see the private system reformed than entirely taken over.
Pat said:
I don't need you to point out some failed policy, I only need to point to one "Success" to show you are wrong.
Up until now, many have pointed to the Savings and Loan rescue by the 1989 FIRREA act. Now, some believe that although successful in the short run, it set up some of the problems that have ricocheted on us today, such as the Fanny Mae and Freddy Mac support for low income mortgages.
An interesting article from Buffett talking about how the low housing starts are good for the economy not bad, because they fix the housing overhang. Obviously he remarks are more helpful for owners rather than renters, seeing we would all love lower prices...
Buffett on housing
DARPA created the Internet. Seems to me that that has been fairly successful.
"DARPA created the Internet. Seems to me that that has been fairly successful."
DARPA created what became the internet.
I like DARPA a lot and they have been involved in a ton of useful projects... but while they created the very earliest form of the internet and some of the underlying technologies... the internet as we know it is almost completely a creation of private industry.
Countless billions of dollars were dumped into the internet in the late 90's by private investors, much of that ultimately proved to be misguided but we are using the successful ideas today.
Jeremy, fannie and freddie are used for a certain purpose by the government right now --- and it is just because in the government's view nobody else would like to take care of the housing mess. So they get some slack from the government, but I do not think that they exactly party very hard these days, it will be pretty stupid in this environment. I can bet their bosses worry much more about their paychecks than a right to party.
As far as any big corporation goes --- you always have some problems with quality of your personnel if you grow big enough. It is not very different from the government. I've seen lousy consultants and I've seen lousy FTEs in many places I worked for. In a big company it is pretty difficult to measure individual's performance, that's why it is a very good idea to work in a smaller place to see your real worth.
"Washington will eventually realize that it is not worth bankrupting the whole country for this non-nonsensical institutions."
I am not sure about this.
The ideological warriors never seem to learn from their errors.
The disastrous collapse of Fannie and Freddie will just provide them with an opportunity to try to create a new government backed entity to try to bend the market to serve their political agenda.
more nutty market stuff
http://franklymls.com/DC7229268
Assessed at 344K, lists down for
218K sells at 230K.
Re: http://franklymls.com/AR7180556
I think they'll be lucky to get the short sale price, which the bank may not approve. Would have been smart to neutralize all those bright walls first.
At 918 square feet (per Arlington's assessment page), it's not truly a 5 BR, 4 BA house. Those main floor bedrooms must be tiny, and with a garage taking up some of the basement space, the bedrooms in the basement are probably not too pleasant either.
Spider the Johnson St House is a
"Potential Short Sale" so if he
bought it at 320K and wanted to
shortsell it at 600-800K they
must have HELOC'd it to death.
That's a sign of at least some
more pain in the markets here.
HB Says:
""In reality the main reason that I don't want the government involved is they mess up nearly everything they get involved in "
and then HB Says:
"I have never said the government does nothing right. Why do you keep trying to put words in my mouth."
Sorry, HB
Which one is the Real HB?
pat,
It is even worse - they bought it at 297k in 2002.
It is very likely they speculated with investment properties using HELOC during the bubble.
Pat-
I stick by both of those statements. I think the private market handles things better than the government. Thus "they mess up nearly everything." This is very different than they get NOTHING right. Saying that the government once did something good doesn't disprove my statement.
It really does shock me that you think many of us are "drinking the koolaid" when we are willing to debate the pros and cons of different arguments, while you are steadfast your way it the only way and everyone else is wrong. Maybe you should consider your own beliefs before you critique others.
Pat, Spider, he probably HELOC'd it to make payments on this one, which was on the market forever, overpriced and unsold. Now it's probably rented again. Notice that he overpaid for the teardown/build up on this one (600K):
http://www.arlingtonva.us/Departments/RealEstate/reassessments/scripts/Inquiry.asp?action=view&lrsn=25398
Looks like another case of an amateur speculator getting overconfident during the bubble.
On HGTV right now they are doing a Cherrydale, North Arlington home on Designed to Sell. It says 2010 as the year they made the show, but I have never seen that home listed.
That is our target neighborhood and it's not listed now. Do they film these a long time ago and just put the date the year they are planning on showing or something? Just wondering to compare the pricing they are looking to get for it as well.
they keep showing the house number, 3301, but I don't know what street it is on. Just curious because I watch those shows.
NM, my husband pointed out there are flowers, must have been in summer?
sehrwunderbar,
take a look
it's actually not far from that short sale next to I-66.
thanks for finding that! How did you find it in frankly?
Thanks, MM. Interesting that it was sold or given to a relative in Nov. 2009, so they never did get a "real" sale, even with a price drop and HGTV's help!
Hey, Ace, a big thank you for pointing out the Dulles Expo Home and Garden Show on Friday, which I attended today. It was not actually a garden show like I thought, but I enjoyed it none-the-less.
You said
At 918 square feet (per Arlington's assessment page), it's not truly a 5 BR, 4 BA house. Those main floor bedrooms must be tiny, and with a garage taking up some of the basement space, the bedrooms in the basement are probably not too pleasant either.
I did the same double-take that you did looking at the tax records and posted commentary on it, but I deleted it once I realized that I had read the tax records wrong. The tax assessment says 1 1/2 story and 918 sq ft but once I reread it carefully I realized that that was above grade. Base footage is over 1800 and there is the annotation B for basement, but without the sq footage listed. House is obviously 3 story and I don't think that the assessor would have screwed up to that degree. (Though stranger things have happened).
Leroy said
"...like DARPA a lot and they have been involved in a ton of useful projects... but [snip]... the internet as we know it is almost completely a creation of private industry."
I know Leroy, I was just goofing around. But in all seriousness, the U.S. Govt is responsible for and stands behind many of the things that the average citizen takes as much for granted as the air that we breathe.
Yes, the govt started the seed of the Internet and academic and private industry took the ball and ran with it. That's the ideal outcome and an example of Stuff Done Right.
For example, our lives are a lot less fraught with NOAA on the job providing the resources for good weather forecasting. The FAA control system keeps us safe in the skies. A lot of the life-safety protections that the U.S. consumer takes for granted come to us courtesy of the Consumer Protection Safety Committee. And the Federal Highway Administration has a large hand in the I-95 and I-66 that so many of us slog over during the week.
Yes, the Govt screws up a lot, but there's a lot they do right as well. Not perfectly, and certainly not all of it, but sometimes they get things right.
C
The Great Lie of the right wingers is that "Government can do nothing",
when in reality the government is pretty good at public goods, club goods and market failure.
We should treat goverment as a tool,
know what it's good for.
Comments on the Dulles Expo Home and Garden Show.
It runs until 6 pm Sun so there's still time to get out there. Parking didn't seem bad at the Expo Center but there is overflow at the Long and Foster Parking garage as well.
My two cents: whoever wrote the overflow parking directions was a clueless dimwit. The entrance is on George Carter road, which is not on older local maps or GPS units. Take Lee Road South off of Rt. 50, go about 1/3 mile and look for George Carter Drive. Use the Long and Foster building as a landmark - it looks like one of Britain's more imposing Royal Palaces. The overflow parking is at that location, there are signs that will direct you once you turn into the Long and Foster compound. There's a shuttle to take you to the Expo center.
The show was jam packed on Sat and mostly consists of building and landscaper exibits. What leaped out at me about the show is that every Tom, Dick and Harry that has ever snaked a sewage line now considers himself a geothermal expert. It's the new buzz.
I noted that most of the exhibitors knew less about the subject than me (not a major benchmark) but all want you to think of them as in-depth subject matter experts. Most of them will assure you that they have installed "lots" of systems. Upon detailed query "lots" becomes "some". When you press hard for details and references "some" becomes "some that we are thinking about installing in the future if they ever pay us to and we can arrange for a subcontractor to actually do the work". At least one self-styled expert I talked to didn't even know the difference between an open and closed loop system. Well, suffice it to say that I shall be inquiring elsewhere ....
That isn't even a good attempt trolling contrarian.
Leroy-
Is contrarian joking or serious about the internet. Gore said he invented it although I am pretty sure he meant that we worked with the people who invented it...
Pat-
Yes the government is pretty good with most public good, but the vast majority of goods are not public good (including in my opinion health care)so yes as I said there are very few times that I like when the government gets involved. It really is amazing how partisan your beliefs are and yet you keep on trying to berate moderates who actually see views from both sides and change their votes depending on which candidate looks like they can do the job better.
Contrarian, it's always a good idea to visit Snopes.com, the debunker of urban myths.
Gore did not make that claim.
HB, I'm trying to stay out of your dispute with pat, but you continue not to recognize that he has made very good points when he noted that your saying that the govt. messes up "nearly everything" is for all practical purposes saying you believe messes up "everything." It really can't be reconciled with claiming that one carefully and logically looks at data on all sides and then makes up one's mind.
Today's Post included:
Five Myths About the Post Office
Even if you meant your comment as a bit of hyperbole about the health care debate, there is a ton of factual information out there that should be informing people's views about what should be done. Demonizing the government isn't the solution, and allowing large orgs. to continue to make tons of money while not providing the best care to the most people, and while eating up more and more of our GNP, is not the solution either. Just a few examples:
In many advanced countries which have better health care outcomes at lower cost than we do, health care IS considered a public good for many reasons. If you are suddenly struck by cancer, your employer terminates your job and you can't afford to continue premiums and later can't get coverage on your own, many people consider this a reason why the society as a whole should bear these risks. They reason, why should a person in this situation lose his/her home, be impoverished or worse, whereas the next person who is otherwise the same age, the same habits, the same job, but not struck with cancer, able to pursue his/her dreams? Other countries have view the profit incentive as partially or completely inappropriate in the health care industry. Fine for selling us apples or the latest fashions; not fine for making a decision about whether our medicine should be covered.
The pharmaceutical industry enjoys some of the largest % profits of any industry, in part by charging Americans far more for the very same prescription drugs sold Germany and France, for example, because our government prevented itself from negotiating with these companies. And, to top it off, your tax money, not private investment, has often provided the major funding of research on these drugs or medical innovations.
The current proposals before Congress don't offer single payer or even a public option to compete with the insurance cos., which have an anticompetitive antitrust exemption. It's hardly the government taking over the industry, and a lot of people left of center are furious with all of the compromises that they feel will do little more than increase the insurance industries profits even more. The system of incentives is awry. Insurance cos. have every reason to deny you coverage that you have already paid for, ignore or deny your appeal of their action, with no recourse. If you're over 40 or 50, they're happy to get rid of you since your costs may rise.
People here might be interested in reading The Healing of America by T.R.Reid, who compares the pros and cons of several countries' systems to consider what would work better for us and what would not.
On a lighter note: C, thanks for the report; glad you enjoyed the H&G show even if it was short on Garden and long on newbies without expertise you needed.
Don't get me started on DARPA and military funding. NIH or NSF funding is a difficult process involving massive peer review, with often only a small percentage of applicants funded (sometimes single digits).
DARPA and military funding is all over the map, as far as quality, and compared to the above agencies, they have cubic dollars, which is sad. Oversight seems to be a lot thinner. I'm not always sure if it's who-you-know or if it's funders that are in over their head and can be awed by shiny things, bright lights, and fast talking, but some of the stuff I've seen them fund is complete garbage done by incompetents that would have never made it past NSF or NIH triage, let alone a senior thesis.
That's my 2 cents.
It's encouraging to see a packed Home and Garden show. I expect that after the Winter we've had people are really looking forward to getting some stuff done to upgrade/brighten their homes.
Thanks to HGTV it's easy to sit at home and see these same ideas.
I drove thru Vienna this morning and was amazed to see some of the new construction/remodels on Ayr Hill, etc. Nice non-subdivision stuff. Took my mind off (slightly) the need for my trip to the vet hosp. Add pet ownership to the province of the wealthy.
Ace-
I actually agree that the post office is well run, I think I also commented earlier that it a quasi government entity. I was mostly just pushing back to be stubborn since he was arguing and I could debunk his comment by saying that it costs more than 43 cents. Although Even if it costs 50 cents that is still very impressive.
You are correct that my comment that they mess up nearly everything is a bit harsh and I should have said that they mess up many things. As I have stated dozens of times I think they have done a lot of great measures to prevent the collapse of the financial system. I also commented they do great with a lot of other public goods. I personally do not think medical care should be a public good, although you are correct there are a lot of goof reasons to consider medical care a public good. Either way I am not sure why I let myself get dragged into these debates seeing that I neither really care that much about what happens and this blog should have nothing to do with medicine, because it is about as far away from housing as you can get.
hb,
I agree with your opinion of gov't efficiency. Best not to discuss "politics". Pat seems to have gone overboard (no pun...).
Pat said
this blog should have nothing to do with medicine, because it is about as far away from housing as you can get.
Your comment reminded me of the Dulles home show exhibit yesterday. Mixed in with the builder and contractor and gadget displays was one hairdresser. I shouldn't of, but I just had to go up and ask her - what is a hair dresser doing at a home show? Her reply - people who live in homes need to get their hair done.
So I guess the reply to your comment would be: people who live in housing need health care. :)
Isn't it surprising that same crowd that would like government to stay out of public welfare or otherwise - lined up begging when their survival was in doubt? Remember financial industry bending on its knees begging tax-payer money. Same industry is spending millions now to oppose much-needed regulatory reforms.
Many who support republican philosophy only prefer socialism when there is a fire in wealthy people's backyard. Socialism for wealthy & capitalism for the rest - sounds like hypocrisy to me.
HB,
I respect your opinions. But, it seems many of your thoughts including bailouts, health-care and others are directly motivated by mainstream media. If you look beyond corrupt campaigns run by health care lobbies & republicans, there are many things to be gained from health care reforms...IMHO.
I also don't think public option by itself will solve the problem. We need to find market based solution to foster lot more competition in the private industry. Public option can just be plain vanilla "catch-all" base option. And no, it will not force private companies out of business. USPS and public schools are good analogy there.
HB,
I am closely associated with health care industry professionally - I still don't subscribe to their opinions, now that must tell you something.
We have ways to go in terms of our health care system compared to other developed nations - and we aren't gong anywhere with the status-quo.
Spider?
Public schools are a good analogy? really? lol... Then I definitely would not want socialized healthcare.
Sehr?
We have it already. It's called Medicare. Also Medicaid. Draw your own conclusions but for many, it's the only access they've got.
sehrwunderbar, what's wrong with public schooling? For many families it is a perfectly fine alternative to afford schooling. Private schools are always an alternative if one wishs to go that way...
My analogy was also specific to the fact that it does not and will not force private industry out of business. It is just more fear-mongering that masses subscribe to mostly from mainstream media...IMHO.
Spider-
What main street media do you watch that is pro bailouts? Everything I ever see says how terrible they are. Have you not noticed that the bailouts are one of the major reason Obama is starting to lose support.
Also as I said before I support government intervention when systems are about to fail imminently. So if the whole medical system was about to fail I would hope the government would give them money to prevent this.
Spider-
I agree our schools are pretty good although you can easily make the same comments about our schools as you do about health care. We spend I believe the 4th most per capita on schools and we are ranked way below that in education. I think a lot of this is because families in the US do not put enough importance on education. I guess another similarity with health care (we live some of the least healthy lifestyles). As I have said I think we need to revamp the health care system, I just would just rather see the government incentive this rather than the government actually making the changes themselves.
spider said...
Many who support republican philosophy only prefer socialism when there is a fire in wealthy people's backyard.
It seems a lot like you and pat are picking and choosing where you want your "big government." You want the government involved in health care but want their hands off the housing market. Seems to me you two are looking out for your own interests as much as anyone else here.
Jeremy,
Read my post again - my interest is not served by government involvement with the health care. Just the opposite - I might even be out of job because of it. I don't favor any socialism in general - leveling the playing field for all private participants is what's needed mostly in health care. Currently there isn't enough competition due to regulations to operate outside state boundaries. Coupled with that public option can allow people to stay afloat between the jobs - similar to unemployment benefits.
HB,
Media had generally advertised bailouts since the beginning as "necessary evil" using "end of the world" argument. Now, recently I see some sense across media/washington/treasury/fed that bailout was a mistake (Government will not publicly accept it - but when history is written we will all see eventually that all it ever saved was wall street bonuses and kept casinos open backed by public tax money)
C,HB, Cheryl.
The Reason I talk about Health Care, is that A medical Emergency is now 50% the cause of Foreclosure.
High Education costs and High medical costs are the things destroying the Middle Class Lifestyle.
Where as before A single working man with a HS Degree could afford a wife and kids in a decent neighborhood, now, it's 2 incomes and manassas.
HB swallows Right Wing Koolaid when he says "It's the Consumers Fault",
when in reality it's a fundamental shift in who pays for our society.
I bet he didn't have the intellectual honesty to watch that Liz Warren video I linked to.
Ace, thanks for the link to the Post Office. They have the issues of a large entity, but, they are in many respects the entity of government that touches most americans.
Pat-
I thought you had lived your entire life in this area (although I may be thinking of someone else). If so do you really think 20ish years ago someone with a high school degree could support a family of 4 in this area and live close to the city you are mistaken. Also DC is becoming increasing less affordable as it has just started to get low on close in land over the past decade.
You are correct I did not watch the video again. I have watched it before and do not want to spend another hour watching it again.
Although I am a little confused you think that you should have a middle class lifestyle even without a degree. If so education is free so how can it be destroying the middle class lifestyle. If you think you need a degree there are great in state options that are fairly affordable.
Finally to your last point I am pretty sure 50% of foreclosures used to be medical related this is no longer the case if it was we wouldn't be seeing such a dramatic rise in foreclosures its not like medical issues are related to economic crisis, but you are correct the number is still very high. The problem is most of these foreclosures are related to people losing their jobs due to chronic illnesses and a good health care will not fix this, it would likely just help with the high bills aspect.
But sure if it makes you happy I will say I am drinking the koolaid. Happy. Now I will not respond to any more of your posts on this subject, because I couldn't care less about it. I am pretty sure that in the near future they will likely do something and it will have some good and some bad features. It will also likely have virtually no impact on my life.
HB
I grew up in Chicago, where people
worked for a living.
I'm sorry you grew up here, it ruins
you for reality.
I'm sorry for wasting your fantasy life.
Pat
Jeremy
I'm a Democrat, I'm not opposed to
the Government doing things it's good for.
You may be some teabagging rightwinger and dislike government, but, don't blame me for wanting the government to comfort the afflicted.
It was Paulson who turned over the treasury to Goldman.
Pat, you said you grew up in Chicago where people worked for a living; there are plenty of welfare, wic, bum households there. It's all over the country that there is a problem with people not wanting to work but feel entitled to everything a person that does work gets.
Where are the links to show taht 50% of homes are being forclosed due to medical reasons?
pat said...
I'm a Democrat, I'm not opposed to the Government doing things it's good for.
Well pat (and since this bucket is hopelessly off topic anyway), I believe the government will be just as good at managing health care as they are at managing the housing market.
Personally I believe health care should stay private, but not be tied to your employer. Raise paychecks and let us buy our own insurance. Give out insurance stamps just like food stamps to those who qualify for assistance so they can get their own coverage too. If they are going to force a "public option" on us, it should be the only option. Otherwise all the expensive, uninsured people will use the public option (which working taxpayers get to pay for) and the rest of us will continue to use our employer provided insurance (which the same working taxpayers for again).
Of course you're too caught up with your "team" partisan politics to actually think of a solution. All you do is blame things on the other party - just like almost every politician in Washington. A Washington politician would rather lose the cure for cancer than let the other side get the credit for it - and that is how you sound in all your posts.
sehrwunderbar,
Try http://pnhp.org/new_bankruptcy_study/
(unfortunately all the info is in .pdf rather than .html form).
You may also be interested in a description of a related book she co-wrote re: middle class lifestyles and bankruptcy.
http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/2003/10.30/19-bankruptcy.html
These studies have been criticized by some (as is typical for most studies that attract a lot of attention), so you may be interested in looking up some of the critiques.
oops, I should have referred to Elizabeth Warren by name rather than as "she."
Ace-
Thanks for the link. Although as I said that study is based on the pre housing crisis data. It is no longer 50%, I have found a couple articles that comment on this but nothing has concrete numbers. Although I assume you would agree if it was 50% in 2007, it must be higher since foreclosures are up by my several hundred percent and its not like medical issues are up that quickly. It also includes people who can not work anymore due to disabilities. I don't think medical care reform can make people not disabled although hopefully maybe some day in the future it will be able to :)
I watched an interesting Buffett interview this morning. In case people don't follow him, he is very liberal and a huge supporter of Obama. He really does not like the current health care proposals at all and urges them to go back to the drawing boards and get bipartisan support. He thinks that all they should worry about is getting the cost down.
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