From Ben Stein's How Not to Ruin Your Life:
"Keeping asking prices high may make sellers feel good, but it won't sell their homes. Consider this: On one hand, brokers tell me that prices haven't fallen much, and that they think that's a good sign. On the other hand, they complain that sales volume is way down.
. . .
Again, the real estate collapse has a long way to run yet, and it'll end when sellers get realistic. That could take four years, and maybe longer. But if you need to sell, there's no shame in asking a sensible price."
38 comments:
Yes! I love this guy.
Because here's the thing: we figured we had three choices when we learned we had to vacate our rental by June: we could rent a different house, we could buy a house we could live in the rest of our lives, or we could buy a modest house so our mortgage payments would be low.
Renting/moving constantly when you have a big family is a pain in the neck, and can get expensive.
Buying a house we could live in forever is just out of the range of possible now, with 4000-6000 sqft McMansions hovering around $500K around Manassas. By NEXT year...
But the third option, buying a modest house for a cheap price, is still not happening, because tiny little ranch houses built in the 60s are asking the same as the ginormous McMansions around here! Pricing makes almost no sense. On the same street in Manassas, there is a 2000sqft 60s ranch asking $610K, and a 5000sqft 70s Dutch Colonial asking $664K. Down the road in Bristow, you have one 2 year old 5500sqft house asking $790K, and the same exact model in the same neighborhood asking $525.
Why is this?
Either the owner who bought at peak is trying to avoid having to bring money to the table, or the bank that holds the mortgage or owns the repossessed house is refusing to take less than their (stupendously high) balance.
And the hopeful buyer, such as myself, is left trying to explain that MY bank will never in a million years approve a loan for those amounts, since the houses are now worth $100K, $200K, $300K less, and will be worth even less next year.
I WISH someone who owned a little old colonial in Manassas on a safe street with a nice yard would price their house around $250K, so we could choose to live a more humble lifestyle. But for now, those little bitty houses are still asking in the $400Ks-$600Ks, so we'd have to pay like kings to live like peasants. Well, you know what I mean.
There are occasional exceptions...giving us hope...but will the stare-down end in time for us? Who knows?
Oprah will give free houses to everyone!
Tabitha-
Look at some of the BIG houses for sale in Lake Manassas (some are 6000 or more square feet)WCI built "Grand Monet" that cost the original owners almost a cool Million 3 years ago
A few are foreclosures - I'd fly a lowball over those for sure if I wanted to stay in PWC...
Harriet--
Here's another house for your "top discounts," I think:
10004 LOMOND DR
MANASSAS, VA 20109
asking $165,000
$440,000 (06/24/2005)
Spunky--
I've noticed those discounts at Lake Manassas, too, but my dear husband needs to stay close to the VRE...and I don't think the neighbors there would appreciate our big messy family too much ;)
Final "short sale" offer update:
Just in case you're interested...
So we made an offer on a house advertised as a legit short sale. Our offer was 10% less than asking, and we were petrified that we were offering too much. The owners came back and said they wanted the full asking price, no concessions. We said our offer stood til today. Today, they still said "full price," so our offer was withdrawn.
Only wrinkle: their agent asked our agent if we minded if he sat down with them tomorrow and tried to explain again how bad their foreclosure would be for them (it is imminent), and how letting the bank see our offer does not mean it will be accepted, but does mean they get a little more time before the foreclosure is a done deal. Since we have no other offer we want to make this moment, we said OK.
Just our luck...here we are thinking we are helping someone stave off a foreclosure, worried sick we are "catching the falling knife," and the seller is saying, "no, our house is worth more than that!! We want full asking price!!" When it's a third party approval anyway...
That's OK. Maybe we are being saved from ourselves...
Tabitha,
Thanks for all your contributions and advice. I guess you should stay away from catching the falling knief. If the seller is not willing to reduce the price may be house is not for you. I have checked so many houses in Ashburn area last year. Some of the houses (TH) I have been told the seller is firm in their price. Guess what that house is still not sold and they relist less then 15k and still not sold.
May be the patience will pay. I want to buy this year too but after reading this blog from Neil and others I am also planing to postpond a little more till the cloud is clear.
- leo
May be the patience will pay. I want to buy this year too but after reading this blog from Neil and others I am also planing to postpond a little more till the cloud is clear.
The cloud will one day clear. Look at my username. One day I will buy. I have a family too. But a little waiting will save a fortune.
Do start looking at open houses. My wife and I laugh every time we find an 'old home' back on the market. We found three that sold and are now back on the market less than 18 months later. That's not normal... People should normally move every 5 years (or so).
But don't base you decision on what I type. Far from it. Determine your own evidence.
"There is nothing so uncommon as common sense." Mark Twain (Ok, Samuel Clemens...)
Got Popcorn?
Neil
Yes, listen to Neil about not listening to everyone. As Shiller points out in this article in the NY Post (http://tinyurl.com/2hxvsp), that is what got us into this mess in the first place and what will likely drive the bottom to lower past where it would go otherwise. Who knows, housing could rebound in 6 months. I don't see it and I've yet to hear someone coherently explain how the fundamentals would allow for it.
Just want to also point out that if you think this quote is true is also another reason why N. Arlington will eventually fall in value too.
Tabitha,
I don't know the specifics of your offer to purchase (or the sellers' exact situation), but I've noticed that when dealing with sellers each has different "sticking points" over which they will not bargain ... If you can discover what these are, you can usually still get what you are looking for, by bargaining instead with them on other "negotiable" items.
For example, you could propose offering full asking price in exchange for the seller paying all closing costs ... or in exchange for the seller giving a second mortgage at a below market rate. Of course, all depends on the situation ... But if the seller is price fixated, it's best you not be.
oh for the love of pete lance . . .
in a bull market yes the seller has the upper hand . . . in a bear market (which we are in) the buyer has all the power. The buyer dictates to the seller what he can and can not do.
Someday it will go too far and the market will swing back . . . but that day is not today!
If a buyer won't lower the asking price but will give a discount on closing costs, I say screw 'em!
My counter-offer is how bout you give me a lower asking price + a discount on closing costs.
Tabitha,
I agree with GTE and not Lance.
Although you have not said it, both agents would have said, "Your offer is out-of-range low, could you add 10 grand." If it were low.
The fact that a bunch of Dentists aren't there with cash suggests, that you are priced above bottom-feeder territory.
This comes down to the sellors are up to their eyeballs, in debt, nuts.
The imminent foreclosure is what law enforcement calls, "a clue".
So there you are. You've done your homework, have your down, lined up a few hundred grand of credit. Spreadsheets printed out and bound. Got your good outfit on.
Husband by your side.
You're ready to rock 'n roll.
You look across the negotiating table and what looks back at you?
Lunatics.
Drooling, dead busted, months of Pay-up-deadbeat letters, lunatics.
If they haven't paid the damn mortgage, what's the state of Sears, Mastercard, and their 5 VISA cards?
Fortunately, the agents are handling the negotiations so they get to deal with that scene and you're spared the horror.
That's my scenario.
I hope Tabitha will tell us how this one ends because this is a good one.
Tabitha, I think you may be limiting yourself by searching for a nice place in Manassas. There is too much junk there.
Tabitha:
My boss and I were talking about houses today; he is of the opinion that the decline will soon begin to flatten out. I argued that we aren't even close to the bottom. "How do you know that," he asked. "Well, if you look at average salaries versus average cost of a house, you'll see that those two lines are still in different galaxies. The only reason those lines got so far apart is because of the "free" mortgage money lenders were throwing into the crowd. With that source of funding gone, either salaries have to go up quite a bit or housing prices have to drop quite a bit. Which do you think is going to happen?" He looked pretty horrified....
gte,
Someday it will go too far and the market will swing back . . . but that day is not today!
Heh - kind of reminds me of Aragorn's speech:
"An hour of wolves and shattered shields, when the age of men comes crashing down, but it is not this day! This day we fight!!" :-)
Anyway,
John, Tabitha,
I do wonder -- I'm beginning to see a lot of competition with Prince William County from Fairfax County. I just ran a search on 4 beds, 3 baths, less than 18 years old SFH in Fairfax County, and came up with 982 properties. The first 90 houses were under 600K.
kh: I promise to give you the final word on our story. Our agent is just flummuxed.
john: sometimes I see Manassas as a dumpy little town with serious problem areas...but we have lived on enough military installations to know how bad things can really be. Good neighbors count for a great deal...what does it matter if you live in a shiny big house if your neighbors are super-materialistic and hate your kids?
gruntled: you hit on a point we keep coming back to, to wit, there were not suddenly thousands and thousands of very wealthy people descending on PWC/Manassas 2003-2006. People were able to buy too much house/pay inflated prices for little homes because a cadre of "professionals" (realtors, mortgage brokers, etc.) thought it would benefit their pocketbooks. Sometimes I wonder if banks intended to take peoples' houses from them...especially when I see foreclosures taking place within months of a purchase. Sometimes I think it was racially motivated, especially when minorities in new neighborhoods pay $200K more for the same model house (I know, I know, they could have gotten lots of extra options, but after walking through dozens of foreclosures knowing what they paid, I don't see that being the case.) Maybe I'm just paranoid.
I do NOT understand economics, but I can figure out some things on my own, and there are not, and never were, enough rich people around here to sustain the prices we saw a couple years ago. It was all pretend.
I saw a quote from a subprime lender advocate in the Manassas Journal on Sunday: "Lenders have done this and more people own homes today than ever did before. And somehow it's a crisis? Yes, there have been some foreclosures, but historically more people are living in homes than ever did before."
I yelled at the ceiling, "More people are being THROWN OUT of their homes! More people are losing their life savings! More people are having their credit destroyed!"
I suppose the people who profited hugely from this debacle are content, but I am tired of watching tragedies unfold because of pretend wealth...
Tabitha,
The Manassas Journal (Urinal Messenger, as its fondly called) Messenger is crap.
And your right, today we do not have more people owning homes. People need to realize that if you have a mortgage you do not "own" your home. You certainly "own" a portion of its worth, but the bank has the ultimate control.
Just because someone is "in" a house, paying a mortgage does not mean society is a better place. But realtors and politicians dont want to get that.
gte811 said: Someday it will go too far and the market will swing back . . . but that day is not today!
Exactly! But I cannot compete against a quote by Aragon. ;)
I suppose the people who profited hugely from this debacle are content, but I am tired of watching tragedies unfold because of pretend wealth...
We have run out of greater fools. The only ones who want it to continue were those who profited from it.
You're doing great research. Since you seem to really like one area, may I recommend tracking the inventory in Manassas and a few nearby areas to see if its getting close to the time to buy (ummm... not today, but one day...) Until inventory returns to sane levels (# units/sales), prices will be weak.
Got Popcorn?
Neil
Personally, I think the saddest thing about this whole mess is the lack of personal responsibility, on all parts (lenders, borrowers, banks, etc).
Everyone thinking someday will never come, the bills will never have to be repaid and the mortgage will never be due, and we will all be insanely rich!
I'm sorry, maybe I'm a cruel person, but I'd say that a huge portion of those that "bought" over the last five years, had no business buying a home (my friend less than 1 year working experience making 60k with only some college education bought a 300k condo???).
Those things that are of most worth in this life take time, effort, and hard work to obtain. I started work in '05, I make more than the median, and I've been saving for 3 years (~50% of my take home), and I finally have enough for a 20% down-payment for the size of a mortgage I can afford comfortably and still save. I may start looking this winter . . . depends on the market and if I decide to look for a transfer.
High standards should be set to buy a house, it's the biggest purchase in one's life, you should demonstrate to the lender that you actually have the willpower and knowledge to make it work. The 0% down, 1% teaser ARMS were just absolutely dumb. It was a huge credit bubble stimulated by the US Government and the Federal Reserve, banks took advantage of cheap money and gave out loans to anyone who would take it. When you already had something like 67% of households owning their homes, the only way you will be able to keep it going is to give teaser loans to low-income people (NINJA loans anyone) who shouldn't qualify in the first place, for whatever reason.
FYI . . . if a low-income person is able to save 20% down and has demonstrated the ability to manage credit . . . by all means they should be able to buy. I have nothing against low-income. In fact I curse the morbid monetary system we have in place b/c through the process of inflation we rob low-income folks of the ability to save money over a long-time frame to build up any wealth so they can buy a home.
In summary it was a classic Ponzi scheme instigated at the very top (Federal Reserve) and carried out all the way down to the bottom.
Tabitha - if you want to get the deal done sometimes it is up to you to be the bigger party when dealing with unreasonable parties. As such, take a look again at Lance's suggestion, if something can be done that doesnt take more money out of your pocket, and still makes the seller happy, I am almost always for it. At the end of the say, it is almost never worth it to say "screw you" out of pride, or just to prove a point.
That said, let me make another suggestion - any chance your agent could get in touch with the lender? If so there are 2 options.
First, if it goes to foreclosure, you could make a standing offer to the lender on the same terms you are offering now - thereby cutting the seller (and their agent) out of the transaction alltogether. Lender may like this because it cuts out the seller's agent meaning another 3% of your purchase price goes to the lender. Conversely, seller's agent, realizing they are going to be cut out completely should put more pressure on his/her client to take the deal.
Second, rest assured, the lender absolutely does not want to foreclose. If they do, they will likely be the only bidder, and then they need to go through the second step of selling the place on the open market. The problem here, this process will take several months, and any purchase price the lender will eventually recieve will be eaten up by trustees fees, agents fees, publication fees, attorneys fees, etc. As such, a practical lender will realize it makes economic sense to get this deal done as quickly as possible and outside of foreclosure (and all its associated fees) if possible.
Realizing this, a smart lender will put pressure on the seller to take the deal. In fact on a strict by the numbers basis, it is likely that the Lender would be better off if it agreed to pay the seller a nominal amount in cash (say a few thousand dollars) to agree to the sale and get out - now. If your agent could contact the lender and make them realize this, perhaps the lender could do something to get the seller to accept.
I know this might not make sense to people who dont deal much with foreclosures - but it can work and is similar to what I tell my clients who buy places at foreclosure. Specifically, when I tell them it will cost 15K in attorneys fees (payable to me) to get the foreclosed upon seller to move out, alot of them realize it makes more economic sense to offer the foreclosed upon seller 10K to move out now. Likewise, a lender is in not such a different position and as such, it may realize it is in the lenders best interest to pay the seller a few thousand to make this whole thing go away now.
The key to all this is to getting access to the lender. If your agent has this sort of access, I would recommend you ask them to get in touch with the lender, and explore each of these options. Good luck.
Sometimes it pays to work with the seller, sometimes it doesn't.
Case in point. My lease came up for renewal last Oct. I asked for a reduction on the rate, they said no, I said well according to the lease if no renewal lease is signed it will just go month to month. So either a) drop the rate, I'll sign a year lease, b) I'll go month to month or c) tell me you won't go month to month and we'll move somewhere else. They wouldn't budge and we went month-to-month. As luck would have it, about 3 weeks later I applied for and accepted a new temporary assignment that I had no clue that I would be accepting and I needed to move. Of course with the month-to-month contract I had no penalties moving out. If they had offered to lower the rent by $50-75 I would have signed a new year-lease contract, and would have been forced to break the lease, and pay the penalty (at least 1 months rent) for doing so. As an interesting side note they relisted the place we rented over $150 less than what our original lease was.
My personal opinion, if you have 20%+ down and are a completely qualified buyer, right now you make the rules. If the seller can't cope with the reality of the market move on . . . there will ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS be another opportunity. That doesn't mean don't strike when the moment is right, it just means that if the moment is not right don't strike :-). I would also personally avoid short-sales and pre-foreclosure right now. I have seen sooo many places re-listed by the bank at lower prices than the short-sale or pre-foreclosure-it's not like you have a whole lot of competition out there :-). But to each his own.
I recognize that I am a hard-nosed bargain driving person . . . but I believe that I do my research extremely well and that if I put an offer I believe it to be a good offer, if they don't like it . . .fine I still believe in my research. It has nothing to do with anything else it's just business, I have a lot of cash to lay down for a house, I do my research I offer what my analysis says is reasonable, if you don't like it I'll find someone who does. If no one bites at my offers, I'll just keep building up my reserve saving money renting b/c I still believe in my research. When my research/analysis demonstrates that the numbers change so be it. Until then, you can take it or leave it.
FYI, I put a couple offers up 9 months ago, no takers, in fact the sellers laughed at me, they are now in foreclosure, while I keep socking money away building my wealth.
Tabitha,
gte has it right.
They are trying play hardball, yet you're the one with all the ammunition.
It's because houses are more emotional to people than stocks, and that makes them less willing to accept a loss come due because of a bad decision.
Just remember, if it were really worth what they are demanding, it wouldn't be approaching foreclosure.
Tabitha!
RUN!
Not because the seller is unreasonable. The seller is irrelevant. Run because it is a Short Sale. You will be pulling out your hair, and you will be bald in 3 months when the bank decides... "nah"
I blogged about this. Short Sales are FAKE LISTINGS! They are a nightmare and only 1 in 20 actually closes (and that is usually when the seller has a preapproved short sale).
And it doesn't matter how much they are losing. This isn't a charity-fest. Heck you can give the $20,000 charity to Cancer research.
Frank Borges LL0SA
Broker Blog.FranklyRealty.com
Frank
In my experience, when sides play hardball they both lose.
If you really want the place Tabitha, work with them and find an arrangement you can live with.
Otherwise the likely outcome is you wont get the house, and they will sell it to somebody else for less than their quoted "bottom" they gave you.
If you dont really love the place and feel you have a lot of other options, by all means stick with your guns.
But be prepared to lose out on places because most sellers want to feel like they are part of the renegotiations, not just dictated to - even if that is actually in their best interest.
"if I put an offer I believe it to be a good offer, if they don't like it . . .fine"
Yeah.
Good attitude.
Repeating the caution for Tabitha, I've delt with nutty sellers. Once they start the hallucinating and fantasizing, as Frank said, "Run!"
Those people went through months and months of debt-hell, collections agencies, overdrawn letters, repos, canceled credit accounts, garnished wages, roll the change to buy milk, harassing phone calls, IRS seized accounts, whatever.
That has driven them nuts.
You don't go to bed one night, everything paid to date, cash savings, then wake up the next morning, and find yourself in foreclosure.
"Oh, we were foreclosed? I wonder why?"
I'm still incredibly curious as to what exactly is going on.
I have to thank everyone for their excellent advice. This is why I continue to give a play-by-play of our househunt--there is so much wisdom here. I cannot tell you how much we appreciate it.
We DO like this house, but we are ambivalent in general about buying now, so we have a simple principle: when a house comes along that we could see our family happy in, we research the situation exhaustively, and then make an offer that is fair to our finances and fair to that specific house. If it doesn't work out, something more appropriate will present itself eventually. If that means renting again, so be it--but we make the expense and hassle and disruption to our kids part of the calculation.
It is not a matter of playing hardball with people. Rather, it is protecting our family's financial health. And again, after military life, we are less likely to "fall in love" with a certain house/certain situation than others. We are used to making the best out of a situation. The overriding principle is financial caution.
So we are happy that our offer is officially withdrawn, and the seller MAY come back to us. That leaves our principle intact.
Again, thank you all. Keep the advice coming!
doug said . .
"In my experience, when sides play hardball they both lose."
All things being equal, I 100% agree with you. If no one is willing to budge then, it generally benefits no-one.
Fortunately for buyers, not all things are equal right now. With the amount of sellers hitting hard time with foreclosures, higher ARM payments, etc, if the seller is being hard-nosed now (either the lender or the "owner") they WILL LOSE and eventually they will beg you to take the place off their hands.
Another case-in-point. About a year ago, my wife and I were looking for a new mattress. We went into a store and looked around, we saw a mattress we liked and commented we liked it but we would like to check out some other stores. The mattress was already 20% off. I said thanks but no thanks to an further drop in price, they dropped the price some more, I said no thanks again. After about 3-4 times of this, I made them a final offer, and they accepted, I bought the thing for 35% of the original price. I understand mattresses are different than houses, but the concepts aren't. If business was so good for them, they wouldn't have haggled with me. They were scared that I would walk out the door (maybe it was a ploy, but if it was it was good, there was visible fear on their face I would walk out). Did they make money, or were they just trying to offload inventory. . . don't know, don't care, it was probably more offload inventory so their loss wasn't as big.
If they made money, good for them, I felt like I got a deal and they needed to get rid of the mattress. I played hard-ball, they capitulated, and both sides won.
I'll tell you one thing, sellers are in a WORLD of hurt right now. Combine higher payments (ARM resets), lower sales, higher foreclosures, AND higher inflation-without much wage inflation. They will continue to be squeezed until they either sell (most likely at a loss) or wage inflation kicks in. Me, I protect my assets by putting my savings in silver and gold, and I just wait and wait and save and save and wait until its time to strike.
Being hard-nosed doesn't mean being unreasonable, it just means you do your research and you offer what you believe is appropriate, and in a buyers market you stick to your reasonable offer.
I would recommend that people here go to Frankly Realty's website and read about short sales. They are most often rigged scenarios set up to dupe both owner and the buyer.
I agree with Frank to stay away from this type of thing. If you want to waste time a lot of time then you are in for a rough ride and most likely won't get the property in the end. Short sales don't equal desparation. They are simply another ploy in the lending industry before true desparation sets in.
We aren't in normal times. We haven't been for about 6 years. Common business sense and personal financial behavior made aberrant turns for millions of Americans. It was a simple connect the dots experience and a gaze into the future. Far from rocket science, it was basic common sense and yet people failed the course over and over again.
Good luck, Tabitha. And as Tom Petty said "don't back down."
I can't believe no one is pointing out to this poor woman that Manassas is run down, old and dangerous, only getting worse and even if you could get a house at 80% off of the peak it is likely to be slums in a few year...people are missing the forest for the trees here.
fd,
I disagree. "Manassas" is neighborhood by neighborhood, just like anywhere else. You yourself complain about parts of Arlington.
Fair enough but there are huge structural risks to Manassas, plus the areas she posts about/writes about are not the nicer areas.
fd:
Which areas of Manassas do you recommend?
We're focusing on Owens Woods/Robnel, Wellington/Cloverhill/Greak Oak, Bear Creek, and Signal Hill. We look to Bristow, as well, as long as the VRE is not too far away.
I use examples from worse areas due to their more dramatic price drops, but we would not consider living there.
If you have further suggestions, I would greatly appreciate your advice. We have not lived here long, so I am sure I have much to learn.
"I disagree. "Manassas" is neighborhood by neighborhood, just like anywhere else. "
I love this quote. I live by catholic U 4 years ago. It was neighborhood by neighborhood there too. One neighborhood over they found a severed head in a dumpster. I moved.
Tabitha said...
“We DO like this house, but we are ambivalent in general about buying now, so we have a simple principle: when a house comes along that we could see our family happy in, we research the situation exhaustively, and then make an offer that is fair to our finances and fair to that specific house. If it doesn't work out, something more appropriate will present itself eventually. If that means renting again, so be it--but we make the expense and hassle and disruption to our kids part of the calculation.”
Tabitha,
Keep on that track! I can’t believe what I’ve read in previous post. If the sellers would rather go into foreclosure than accept your offer, let them. That’s one more home still on the market, driving down prices. You have hundreds of other homes out there.
If the seller’s realtor is coming back to you after your offer was rejected, they are basically making an offer to the buyer (supposed to be the other way around).
Heck, tell them “nah, my original offer is off the table, the new offer is $10k below the original and I’ll subtract $10k every 10 days”….Seems they have already chosen foreclosure, no need to try to change their minds with a higher offer.
"Seems they have already chosen foreclosure, no need to try to change their minds with a higher offer."
Yes they have!
But just think, after they go into Foreclosure, they'll still be able to tell people "we didn't give it away"
Tabitha- walk away from this one - heck, even their Realtor is sick of this mess!!
I think you all need to think aboutschools for your kids futures
I know you Home School now, but that may change later ( I know MANY who home schooled in Elementary but wanted their kids in High Schools later!)
Do you want your kids going to Manassas High Schools?
Really?
You'd better go check them out!!
Spunky, I intend to homeschool through high school, but we have Seton School here, which is one of the top Catholic schools in the country. Another reason to stay close to Manassas...
Good Tabitha- sounds like you have the schools figured out-
now just make sure you don't end up in a Gang-land 'hood.
There are plenty of them in Manassas, as you know.
"Seems they have already chosen foreclosure, ..."
And there is the mystery.
Could their reasoning be that they are going bankrupt anyway.
The foreclosure would only be another small mark.
A short sale avoiding foreclosure means that they bring money to the table. That's money that they have to extract by "selling" other assets.
Perhaps it's $25K from each car or $500 from each TV at a yard sale.
They can avoid foreclosure but must liquidate "hidden" cash assets and they will end up bankrupt because of VISA bills and whatever else they owe.
Alternately, they take the hit of the foreclosure and the following bankruptcy but manage to "sell" their TV's and cars and conceal a cash stake.
Either way, they end up bankrupt.
I am discouraged because I am looking for a teardown in Fairfax City. People still want 400K for a 1950's box. Do you think price will ever be reasonable there?
Post a Comment